This is an abridged version of an interview with Arsenal midfielder Jorginho, recorded with Ayo Akinwolere for The Athletic Football Podcast.
For the full interview, listen below or search for The Athletic Football Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and all the usual places.
Ayo Akinwolere: Top of the league, three points from Manchester City. What’s what’s life like behind the scenes?
Jorginho: Everyone’s really excited. It’s where we want to be but everyone is focused because we know we have a lot to do… and it’s a long way to go.
Akinwolere: What do the lads call you? ‘Jorginho’? ‘Jorg’?
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Jorginho: You have everything. You have Jorg, you have Jorginho. You have ‘Papai’.
Akinwolere: Who calls you Papai?
Jorginho: It’s like a joke that we say in Portuguese. It’s like a bro. If you translate it, it means daddy. But saying to a friend like this, like bro. ‘Hey, Papai!’.
Akinwolere: Why do you think Mikel Arteta thought, ‘Jorginho. I like this guy’. What do you think you’re offering?
Jorginho: Maybe that’s a question for him! I don’t know… he tried to sign me a few times and we had this conversation and he was like, ‘OK, this is going to be the last time that I try’. But I think he relies on my qualities, not just on the pitch, but off the pitch as well, because all I want, and all I try to do, is help; help all my team-mates, everyone at the club and help the staff, bringing my experience, my mentality of wanting to win all the time.
Akinwolere: Your role in Arsenal is slightly different to your previous clubs, Chelsea or Napoli. Are you happy? It’s a different kind of arrangement at Arsenal.
Jorginho: Yeah, it’s a bit different and I’m happy — if I wasn’t happy, I wouldn’t be here. And it’s different from Napoli because I was way younger. But here, in Arsenal, is quite similar to where I was in Chelsea. It’s all about helping, achieving and growing the team together.
Akinwolere: Kai Havertz. You played with him at Chelsea but is he a little misunderstood at Arsenal? What is it like to play with him?
Jorginho: He’s an unbelievable player. As a guy, no words. It’s so, so, so good. Such a nice guy. I love Kai. He became a friend and I always want the best for him as a player.
He has intelligence. It’s funny because you look at him and you think he’s not fast, but he is fast. And then you think he’s not strong because maybe he looks skinny, but then he goes to the challenge and he’s strong. So maybe it takes a little while for people to understand his qualities, but how much effort he puts in… and his qualities just come out all of a sudden when his confidence is high, as with everyone else.
But his intelligence, his technique, his finishing — when he finishes, I swear to you, it looks like he just put it there, like he doesn’t care. The ball goes to the corner (of the net) and I’m like, ‘How do you do that?’.
Akinwolere: Do you think there are certain players that other footballers see the qualities and maybe the fans don’t?
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Jorginho: For sure, 100 per cent. If you know football, it’s not possible that you don’t like Kai. And I know what you mean, because that happened to me a lot. But when you play beside him, it’s just different. You see straight away his qualities and what he can offer. You just look at him and you understand what he wants, what he expects from you, what he expects (with) the ball, the way he puts his body in position. So he makes things easier for who’s beside him.
Akinwolere: Let’s bring this back to you. Because I love what you said there. You’ve been in the same position where people don’t understand you. How would you deal with that, mentally?
Jorginho: I learned to use that as a motivation because you have two ways: you get the criticism and it takes you down or you take that and you transform in motivation to prove them wrong.
And that’s what I always did since Verona (the Italian club where he came through the youth system). I was really young and the fans didn’t want me to play because I was too young, I wasn’t ready yet. That wasn’t true, because I started playing.
We went from Serie B to Serie A. In the first six months, I scored seven goals and then I was sold to Napoli. I got to Napoli, same story. The fans were not sure. And then we made history with the way we played football. And then I went to Chelsea and again: ‘Yeah, he’s too slow… his physicality’. I’ve been hearing that my whole career, about my physicality and my pace.
That’s not my strength, I know that. That’s why I don’t rely on that. And I got here and I achieve so much because of my strength. That’s, I think, my brain; you know, I anticipate things. I can see things differently. My quality is to make things easier for the whole team, for the team to play better, to keep the team compact, to make things happen in a way so it looks easy. But maybe it’s not that easy, you know?
Akinwolere: Can I share a stat with you? Only Rodri had a higher ball-retention rate under pressure in the Premier League last season than you.
Jorginho: There you go. Maybe I’m not that wrong then!
Akinwolere: Does it annoy you that people are making perceptions of your game, that you don’t feel like they understand football? Does it worry you that that’s the way the industry goes?
Jorginho: Yeah, but that doesn’t affect me as a human, because I know who I am and what I do. And people who are close to me know who I am. And that’s it, that’s enough. I know I can’t make everyone like me. That’s not possible.
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Everyone has an opinion, and I don’t let that affect me. Sometimes it makes me laugh, actually, because I’ve heard in my first season in Chelsea, there was this thing, yes — 2,000 passes and not one assist but go on YouTube and put (on a video of) that season and you can see how many created chances there were.
Some were in front of the ’keeper and they didn’t score, and then I didn’t get the assist. That’s why it didn’t affect me. It doesn’t affect me because I know what I’m doing, and I criticise myself a lot when I think I didn’t do something right.
Akinwolere: Let’s move on to something that finally happened this season for you — a goal, against Lens…
Jorginho: You don’t give me the goal against Aston Villa (last season)?
Akinwolere: This is what I was going to ask you. You know I wanted to give you the goal. What a banger. But it came off (the crossbar and then goalkeeper Emiliano Martinez, who was credited with an own goal). It kind of came off the back of….
Jorginho: I don’t care. I never had a shot like it! They didn’t give it to me. But in my head it’s mine.
Akinwolere: The goal against Lens must make you feel good to get off a clean goal for Arsenal?
Jorginho: Yes. What was really special? My mum and sister were there as well. I was really happy when I saw the opportunity, especially because I just missed (a penalty last month) for Italy.
Akinwolere: If you miss penalties, not many players want to take another. What makes you want to?
Jorginho: I believe in myself, and believe I can help the team. That’s not like a selfish situation, I want to prove that I’m good enough… no, I don’t need to prove to anyone. I just believe I can help the team score the goal.
If somebody else is feeling better in that moment and wants to take the penalty, I’m the first one to say that is not going to cause any problem. The main target is always the team. You have to put the team first and then yourself.
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Akinwolere: One of the things that was most obvious about that penalty was you didn’t do the hop on your run-up. It was a successful technique — with one of the highest penalty streaks in the Premier League — so why have you switched it?
Jorginho: The goalkeepers are studying more and more and more, and taking a penalty is getting harder and harder — and it will get harder and harder.
So, at some point, I felt, ‘OK, I need another option’. It’s not easy for the ’keepers to save it, they’re going to study and train and prepare themselves just for that option. So having another option, it can become a little bit more complicated (for them).
Akinwolere: Do you think that was what Jordan Pickford thought about when you took that penalty in the Euros final (against England two years ago)?
Jorginho: Oh, for sure. All of them. And then I took another one against him. And then I didn’t do it. And he was like, ‘Oh, I was waiting for that, you know’.
Akinwolere: Well, also, you know that final was a pivotal moment for your Arsenal team-mate Bukayo Saka. He missed a penalty. And we talk about mentality. He’s not shy of taking a penalty as well. Do you see that same characteristic inside of him?
Jorginho: Yeah, I do. He’s so good at taking penalties. And he’s such a big player with a big personality. Why would he hide himself from a penalty when he can help the team? I don’t think he should even if he missed another one, he’s so good at it.
Akinwolere: I’m a Nigerian guy, who grew up in England. I’ve got a British passport, I’ve got a Nigerian passport. Bukayo Saka — Nigerian heritage but plays for England. You are a Brazilian who plays for Italy.
The abuse Saka got after that miss in 2021 was insane. And you were in that rare position as well where you’re Brazilian and also you play for Italy. Now you’ve received this kind of stuff before. I don’t want to say is it part of the game, but is it hard to say, ‘I’m Italian only so long as I play well for Italy’? Is that hard to take?
Jorginho: It’s not easy. It’s hard. It’s harsh. And, unfortunately, it does affect you because you give everything. You try your best. Sometimes, your best is not enough. And people forget you are just human beings.
The first person that hurts you? It’s you. Because you didn’t want that to happen. When it happens, you are the first one to stab yourself in the back. ‘Why did you do that?’, or, ‘Why didn’t you do another thing?’. It doesn’t feel good.
If a footballer makes a mistake, it feels like it’s the end of the world. Everyone wants to kill you. Let’s say you make a mistake here (at The Athletic). You make a mistake here and that’s it. And maybe your boss will be upset with you. But nothing is going to affect maybe your children, your family. With us, it’s different, because it affects a lot of people, not just us (the player involved). Maybe my mum, my father, my sister, who maybe is at the stadium. My kids, when they go to school and they (other children) say, ‘Oh, your dad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah’, you know? And that’s without even mentioning social media.
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Akinwolere: They can say anything.
Jorginho: Anything, and they can hide behind a screen, you know? But that doesn’t affect just me, just the player. It didn’t happen to me but it happened to other players — threats to their families because of a football game. It’s the game that everyone loves. So instead of being a joy. It could be a tragedy. So where is this going?
Akinwolere: Do you think you play more like a Brazilian or an Italian?
Jorginho: That’s a tricky one because I have both. I swear to you. Like, tactically, I don’t think I’m Brazilian. Speaking of football, tactically for me, is Italy… and maybe technique: maybe Brazilian. Maybe mentality: more Italian.
Akinwolere: What do you miss most about Brazil?
Jorginho: The weather!
But, apart from jokes, my family and my close friends. I miss them a lot. I try to bring them here as much as I can because to go there, for me, it’s really hard with this schedule. So now my mom and my sister are here, my dad’s been here a few months ago, and I have two friends coming for Christmas as well.
Akinwolere: When you’re about to come on as a substitute, how much can you take in of what Arteta wants, or is that the stuff that happens in the training ground or just before the game? There’s a lot of information.
Jorginho: Yeah, it’s a lot of information from him. But not at that moment (of being sent on). In that moment, it’s just like two key bits that may be happening on the pitch that he didn’t plan in training, for example. And he was like, ‘OK, this is happening and we need to do this and this’.
Akinwolere: Do you then have to come on and tell everybody else exactly what they need to be doing?
Jorginho: Yeah, maybe it’s not even everybody else. Maybe it’s just like two players, you know. But all the details and all the information, he gives us that in training. So when we get there, he doesn’t want us thinking and processing all the information. He wants us ready, free to play and free to put our stuff on the game as well.
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Akinwolere: So he allows you to play with personality in the game?
Jorginho: Yeah, of course, you have to. In the end, football is talent as well.
Akinwolere: Sometimes people think someone like that is so meticulous, like Pep Guardiola, maybe they take the personality away from a player. But you say you’ve got the tactics but can still be yourself?
Jorginho: What he tries to do is to create a strategy that can bring out the best of yourself, so he can read the characteristics from the players he has, and the way he wants to play allows your best characteristics to come out. Example: when he wants me to play, he doesn’t want me to go compete for the ball in the air. He put in a strategy that I’m going to go for the second ball.
Akinwolere: That’s so fascinating because (as a spectator) you’re like, ‘Why is Jorginho not getting the first ball?’. It’s planned that way?
Jorginho: Of course. Everything is planned. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but every situation in a game, you can be sure that Mikel Arteta works on it!
Akinwolere: We spoke about this before… the story of you going to Verona (as a youngster) and being on like €20 a month?
Jorginho: Yeah, basically, I went to Italy (from Brazil) and then I was living with €20 per week. I was living in a monastery. We wouldn’t see the priests. You know, there was the part for the priests and then there was the other part, this corridor with all bedrooms, like for students, for young players. And I used to live there with five boys. We were six in the room and we were treated so well.
When I went there for the first time, I was 15.
Akinwolere: You left Brazil at 15?
Jorginho: Yeah, I was 15. And we used to live on €20 a week, for one and a half years, then I found out the agent took money.
Akinwolere: Do you know how much? Can you say?
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Jorginho: I don’t want to say.
Akinwolere: Fair enough. It’s a lot, yeah?
Jorginho: That situation? Yes. It was. And when I found out, I went crazy. Football was over in that moment. I wanted to go back home.
Akinwolere: But you’re miles away from home. This is your very first big shot, right? You’re in an academy.
Jorginho: For me, it was over. I wanted to give up… I called home, crying, and I said, ‘This is enough for me’. I miss so much — my friends, my family, my home. And I’m living on €20 per week. I can’t help my mum, my dad. So what am I doing here?
Akinwolere: Was that your dream as a footballer? To help your mum and your dad, make some money and then send some back home?
Jorginho: That was my target. And I called home, crying. And fortunately, I had parents who said ‘no’ to me. They said, ‘You are not coming back. You are too far (down the road to making it in professional football) now’. It was so close, I was training with the first team. I was 17 and I was training with the first team and they said, ‘No, you are too close. You cannot give up now’. And I was like, ‘Please, take me home’. And they said, ‘No, you’re not going home’.
So they convinced me to stay. Fortunately. And then everything started changing.
Akinwolere: But how did you know the agent was taking the money?
Jorginho: I didn’t have a player contract.
Akinwolere: Is this unusual, or it just depends?
Jorginho: It depends but in that situation, it was unusual because other boys had a contract. And we were the only two youth players training with the first team. The other boy, he had the contract. I didn’t, and some other boy had the player contract, not playing with the first team.
And then I asked the agent why I don’t have it and he used to say, ‘Oh, I’m sorry, they don’t want to do it for you. I need to find another situation for you’. I was like, ‘This is weird’.
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And then I met my friend, one of my best friends who was the goalkeeper, and he spoke with his agent to find out about that. And then it came out that the team would speak with him. I was underage, so the team would speak with him.
And for my contract, he’d ask for more money from the team. To me, he would say, ‘The team doesn’t want to make a contract with you’. So because he wouldn’t get the money, I wasn’t getting the contract and living with €20 per week.
Akinwolere: Let’s finish on this: who would you say is the best player you have faced in the Premier League?
Jorginho: Kevin De Bruyne is ridiculous. But I think Mohamed Salah, he was another level. I think, yeah, I put Salah first. He was so strong, so powerful, so fast. His mentality… and however he would shoot, it would go in.
And then in terms of intelligence on the pitch, Kevin is another level as well. So hard to mark because he’s always in the right place, always on your shoulders. Like, ‘Where is he? Is he here now? No, he’s there’.
Jorginho is a founding investor and ambassador at Gather. Click here for more information https://gatherinvesting.com/
(Top photo: The Athletic)